Qualifying? How would that work, then? Are you talking about any old middle or long distance race, or just for 'Iron' branded ones?
I have no idea. But I bet the events would still be full, just with people who genuinley love the sport of Triathlon and are not just out to tick a box. It could be as simple as just having completed a couple of standard distance ones in a time that meant you didn't 'just finish'. I guess that would be determined by age or something. Look, i have to be honest here. I'm just bitter because i didnt have the entry fee for 70.3 uk when it opened and then it sold out in 3 days or something meaning my planned A event for 2010 is already buggered... I have a hard time believing that all of the those entries were taken by people who will do the event justice, but hey ho, such is life. Things like that though make it hard for me to congratulate the people who walk the run and push their bike up the hills.
I think that it is hard to set a 'qualifying' standard for someone doing a 70.3 or LD for the first time, for example for a marathon should we set a qualifying time for a 10K? No, because a 10K and a marathon are different animals as are an OD and a 70.3 / LD. Just because someone can go balls out for an OD does not mean that they will do equally well in a 70.3 / LD whereas someone who has the stamina to do an LD well may not be quick enough to set a qualifying time in an OD.
I have spoken to a couple of people who did IMUK, both did a 70.3 beforehand, both said they were not comparable and one wished he had not done the 70.3 as it raised doubt in his mind about the IM event and detracted from his performance as he unnecessarily kept something in reserve. all the way through till the last 5K of the run convinced that he was going to burn out.
Started up towards the sub 35 min pen and worked perfectly not really overtaken and didn't get in anyone elses way. A couple of the fun brigade made it up there but made a huge difference.
Managed to PB in 42.56.
Fate it would seem was not without a sense of irony when i was overtaken by a tomatoe with 500m to go!
This thread was kicked back into life with the above. If this is complaining about fun runners, and people seeding themselves incorrectly, what the hell was a 43 minute 10k'er doing starting amongst the 35 minute runners. I'm sure they complained when they had to dodge the slow 43 minute runner.
This thread was kicked back into life with the above. If this is complaining about fun runners, and people seeding themselves incorrectly, what the hell was a 43 minute 10k'er doing starting amongst the 35 minute runners. I'm sure they complained when they had to dodge the slow 43 minute runner.
There is an argument to say that it's a race and so even the slow people have the right to push forward if they think it will make them a little faster... Kind of like the swim start at a triathlon in that respect.
Definition 1) Someone who runs slower than <insertyournamehere>.
Definition 2) Someone who isn't going to earn any money from it, so is just doing it for fun. I.e. if you don't have a chance of winning, then you are a fun runner.
Definition 3) Someone who keeps the RPE way down - i.e. can chat/talk all the way round, doesn't get a sweat on etc. I.e. isn't racing.
I think 1) is CK's definition. I think 2) is a pretty appealing one - certainly one that a lot of pro's hold. And CK would be a fun runner by this definition, as he is far too old to win anything now. 3) is perhaps what I mean.
Apropos of nothing in particular, there was a news story recently about a benefit cheat from Cardiff. She claimed to be disabled, and got lots of disability allowance. She was caught out when one of the benefit officers saw her doing a 5K "Race for Life" event in Cardiff. Oh dear.
Of course the world was shocked. However, my thoughts, on a) seeing her rather fat form and, in particular hearing that her time for the 5K was 1hr 30mins, thought "Mmm.. that sounds pretty incapacitated to me".
Started up towards the sub 35 min pen and worked perfectly not really overtaken and didn't get in anyone elses way. A couple of the fun brigade made it up there but made a huge difference.
Managed to PB in 42.56.
Fate it would seem was not without a sense of irony when i was overtaken by a tomato with 500m to go!
This thread was kicked back into life with the above. If this is complaining about fun runners, and people seeding themselves incorrectly, what the hell was a 43 minute 10k'er doing starting amongst the 35 minute runners. I'm sure they complained when they had to dodge the slow 43 minute runner.
Tri,
Fair point well made Barberra as they might say, but you may have missed the part that said i was not overtaken and didn't get in the way.
Maybe the organisers created the markers to far apart? Could be part of the issue? I finished about the top 10% and that is probably where i started in relation to the field.
Just to antagonise, "not really overtaken", so overtaken then. "didn't get in anyone else's way", just means that the faster guys behind you got by without any trouble.
This thread was kicked back into life with the above. If this is complaining about fun runners, and people seeding themselves incorrectly, what the hell was a 43 minute 10k'er doing starting amongst the 35 minute runners. I'm sure they complained when they had to dodge the slow 43 minute runner.
There is an argument to say that it's a race and so even the slow people have the right to push forward if they think it will make them a little faster... Kind of like the swim start at a triathlon in that respect.
Does that mean I have the right to run straight through the person who starts too far forward? I'd like that trampling the 75+ min 10k runner who starts in the 45min section
I think if you take the 'race' that seriously you do whatever you need to, to get your PB. Like with triathlon, you 'race' better with every race (provided you learn the lessons of previous races!) If you know a problem exists (like being trampled in the swim) you do something about it. So at your running race if you know there are going to be people in the 'wrong pen' you do something about it - move to a position where they aren't a problem. It's called racing nous. To berate others for something which is in your control is just sour grapes, IMO.
I think if you take the 'race' that seriously you do whatever you need to, to get your PB. Like with triathlon, you 'race' better with every race (provided you learn the lessons of previous races!) If you know a problem exists (like being trampled in the swim) you do something about it. So at your running race if you know there are going to be people in the 'wrong pen' you do something about it - move to a position where they aren't a problem. It's called racing nous. To berate others for something which is in your control is just sour grapes, IMO.
And to take your attitude is selfish and ignorant - you know there is a problem so to solve it you create a problem for other people. But hey, its ok YOU won't have anyone in YOUR way. You Jac, are what is wrong with society these days, everyone things about themself and no one thinks beyond what is there's and what they want or need.
I haven't got a problem with fun runners. I am one. I would much prefer running for run and for charity than some personal goal which means nothing in the big scheme of things. I'm not going to moan or whinge if others get in my way. But to prevent that happening, based on my previous experience, I will take what action I can. Yeah, maybe that is selfish. But I would say thousands of runners out there running for personal glory are selfish too. And I'm sure you would be amongst their number.
Yes of course it is selfish to inconvenience others for what you consider a fun run, which has no meaning in the grand scheme of things as you said.
personal glory...no, not for me. I don't get see there's any glory for me from running in races as i'm never going to be near the front, top 10 etc. I run because I enjoy it, I run in races because i enjoy seeing how far my training has come/improvements i have made from last time. However, I also try to make sure that I would not be starting at the front in the way of people who have a chance of winning or at least obtaining some 'glory' by being close top 10 or whatever. I start in the right area, so I 'should' have the best chance of running a good time or pb BUT also not inconvienencing faster people. You see, as I start in the right place, and it is people like you who start way further forward than their ability would dictate to be reasonable. And the more you do it, the more other people do it, and the more of a problem it becomes.
As for moaning about it, i figures its better than kicking them to the floor and trampling them on race day...never know i might try it so if you find a trail of people being trampled as i close up on you - speed up!
By the very nature of your posts it is obvious you take your running seriously. For YOUR gain. Not anyone else's. You care about YOUR time, not anyone else's. You could argue that is selfish. You wrote: "You Jac, are what is wrong with society these days, everyone things about themself". So entering a race with your stated intentions "seeing how far my training has come/improvements i have made from last time" is not selfish? But anyway this really gets away from the debate. Arguing over who is selfish and who isn't is getting a bit crazy (and I must stop myself!) Coming to your point about having officials moving people to the back because they don't look fast is ridiculous and totally unworkable. If you are interested in racing and want the quickest time possible for YOU, which it sounds as though you are, then adopt a bit of racing nous. Also, just a thought. Those guys who really do race - the elites - they must hate those who are slower than them. Maybe Haile Gebrselassie should start in a pen all on his own? What is he doing mixing it with guys who run 20 minutes slower than him? Or maybe he has the racing nous to know he can beat them even if he gets boxed in?
On the flipside: Maybe they're saying 'Look at all those numpties who are running as if their lives depend on it. Why do they have to take it so seriously?'
no I don't consider running for my gain to be selfish, in any more of a way than say, eating food i like or doing anything for wme which does not negatively impact other people. it is that part which is selfish. following your argument through (to an extreme), breathing is selfish as i do this for my own benefit... but yes arguing over who is or is not selfish is pointless as it is part of the human condition to be selfish
your point re Gebresalassie is void as he is not unbeaten, nor unbeatable and is there to compete with his peers, they are therefore in the right place. your argument again is a bit like saying that no one should ever race against anyone who has once run faster than them, he is and ever will be the best because until he dies no one is allowed to race him... which i'm sure you will agree is a bit ridiculous. The point of the thread is about those who are further forward than their ability would dictate. you know, like you!
jac, i do agree about the walkers, i was once asked at the end of a 10k, as i was waiting for my girlfriend to finish why i had run so fast by a lady who had been watching and waiting for her friends to walk round - 'it'd be much easier if you walk' she said...
I think you took the Gebreselassie point a bit too literally. My point was he doesn't demand he starts in a different pen based on his PB or training times. He starts with everyone else. He mixes it with those who can't even get close to him. If entering big races/runs fills you with such anger because of the antics of others you might be better off finding events for 'serious' runners. If you know the problem exists but are unwilling to do anything about it, it's strange that you still want to do it. Unless you enjoy a bit of aggro and a whinge afterwards.
The thread is perhaps misnamed, our ire is not directed to fun runners - crack on.
The thread as I see it is about people who take part in a RACE and then position or conduct themselves in such a way as to inconvenience those who have placed themselves in the correct wave and want to achieve the best possible time. This applies equally if they are dressed as King Kong or have all the gear but seed themselves incorrectly.
Large events need not cause such aggro if only the organisers got a grip, attempted some form of seeding by colour coded bibs and getting marshalls to direct those who are causing an obstruction to move to one side. If everyone from elite club runners to Batman seeded themselves correctly everyone would enjoy their own particular race.
There are a couple of events which are RACES I will no longer take part in because of this.
I will also be doing the Lincoln Santa FUN RUN and I would be completely out of order to shout and push past people so I will not as it is a FUN RUN
Just start at the back of the pack. Smile as you weave thru the jogging masses,pass them by with a nice greeting and a smile, Use the first few minutes of bobbing and weaving as a nice warm up to get into a natural stride,it stops you from going off too quickly, Enjoy the journey not just the finish.
jac, i'm aware about the gabresellasie point literally, which was to illustrate my point. he is racing his peers, they may not be 'as' fast as him but can beat him - oh and btw in most races the elites start in their own wave/pen, i'm pretty sure that if he was starting alongside a 5hr marathon runner he'd be a little miffed for the few seconds they would be within sight. Anywho....
re enjoying aggro, no i'm just a little naive and believe in karma, that if i do 'the right thing' others will see my example and follow suit, thus avoiding the problem for everyone. it's the opposite attitude to your 'lowest common denominator approach'
but yes, I am english so it is in my nature to have a winge whilst not taking any action...queues, don't get me started on queues!
zac, the words: nail, head, hit come to mind, I loved doing the London Santa run last year, 2,000 people in santa suits running around battersea park was fantastic fun! not a pb in sight i don't think
Comments
I have spoken to a couple of people who did IMUK, both did a 70.3 beforehand, both said they were not comparable and one wished he had not done the 70.3 as it raised doubt in his mind about the IM event and detracted from his performance as he unnecessarily kept something in reserve. all the way through till the last 5K of the run convinced that he was going to burn out.
What is a fun runner?
Definition 1) Someone who runs slower than <insertyournamehere>.
Definition 2) Someone who isn't going to earn any money from it, so is just doing it for fun. I.e. if you don't have a chance of winning, then you are a fun runner.
Definition 3) Someone who keeps the RPE way down - i.e. can chat/talk all the way round, doesn't get a sweat on etc. I.e. isn't racing.
I think 1) is CK's definition. I think 2) is a pretty appealing one - certainly one that a lot of pro's hold. And CK would be a fun runner by this definition, as he is far too old to win anything now. 3) is perhaps what I mean.
Apropos of nothing in particular, there was a news story recently about a benefit cheat from Cardiff. She claimed to be disabled, and got lots of disability allowance. She was caught out when one of the benefit officers saw her doing a 5K "Race for Life" event in Cardiff. Oh dear.
Of course the world was shocked. However, my thoughts, on a) seeing her rather fat form and, in particular hearing that her time for the 5K was 1hr 30mins, thought "Mmm.. that sounds pretty incapacitated to me".
Fair point well made Barberra as they might say, but you may have missed the part that said i was not overtaken and didn't get in the way.
Maybe the organisers created the markers to far apart? Could be part of the issue? I finished about the top 10% and that is probably where i started in relation to the field.
Like with triathlon, you 'race' better with every race (provided you learn the lessons of previous races!)
If you know a problem exists (like being trampled in the swim) you do something about it.
So at your running race if you know there are going to be people in the 'wrong pen' you do something about it - move to a position where they aren't a problem.
It's called racing nous.
To berate others for something which is in your control is just sour grapes, IMO.
I'm not going to moan or whinge if others get in my way.
But to prevent that happening, based on my previous experience, I will take what action I can.
Yeah, maybe that is selfish.
But I would say thousands of runners out there running for personal glory are selfish too. And I'm sure you would be amongst their number.
personal glory...no, not for me. I don't get see there's any glory for me from running in races as i'm never going to be near the front, top 10 etc. I run because I enjoy it, I run in races because i enjoy seeing how far my training has come/improvements i have made from last time. However, I also try to make sure that I would not be starting at the front in the way of people who have a chance of winning or at least obtaining some 'glory' by being close top 10 or whatever. I start in the right area, so I 'should' have the best chance of running a good time or pb BUT also not inconvienencing faster people. You see, as I start in the right place, and it is people like you who start way further forward than their ability would dictate to be reasonable. And the more you do it, the more other people do it, and the more of a problem it becomes.
As for moaning about it, i figures its better than kicking them to the floor and trampling them on race day...never know i might try it so if you find a trail of people being trampled as i close up on you - speed up!
By the very nature of your posts it is obvious you take your running seriously. For YOUR gain. Not anyone else's. You care about YOUR time, not anyone else's. You could argue that is selfish.
You wrote: "You Jac, are what is wrong with society these days, everyone things about themself".
So entering a race with your stated intentions "seeing how far my training has come/improvements i have made from last time" is not selfish?
But anyway this really gets away from the debate. Arguing over who is selfish and who isn't is getting a bit crazy (and I must stop myself!)
Coming to your point about having officials moving people to the back because they don't look fast is ridiculous and totally unworkable.
If you are interested in racing and want the quickest time possible for YOU, which it sounds as though you are, then adopt a bit of racing nous.
Also, just a thought. Those guys who really do race - the elites - they must hate those who are slower than them. Maybe Haile Gebrselassie should start in a pen all on his own? What is he doing mixing it with guys who run 20 minutes slower than him?
Or maybe he has the racing nous to know he can beat them even if he gets boxed in?
your point re Gebresalassie is void as he is not unbeaten, nor unbeatable and is there to compete with his peers, they are therefore in the right place. your argument again is a bit like saying that no one should ever race against anyone who has once run faster than them, he is and ever will be the best because until he dies no one is allowed to race him... which i'm sure you will agree is a bit ridiculous. The point of the thread is about those who are further forward than their ability would dictate. you know, like you!
I think you took the Gebreselassie point a bit too literally. My point was he doesn't demand he starts in a different pen based on his PB or training times. He starts with everyone else. He mixes it with those who can't even get close to him.
If entering big races/runs fills you with such anger because of the antics of others you might be better off finding events for 'serious' runners.
If you know the problem exists but are unwilling to do anything about it, it's strange that you still want to do it. Unless you enjoy a bit of aggro and a whinge afterwards.
The thread is perhaps misnamed, our ire is not directed to fun runners - crack on.
The thread as I see it is about people who take part in a RACE and then position or conduct themselves in such a way as to inconvenience those who have placed themselves in the correct wave and want to achieve the best possible time. This applies equally if they are dressed as King Kong or have all the gear but seed themselves incorrectly.
Large events need not cause such aggro if only the organisers got a grip, attempted some form of seeding by colour coded bibs and getting marshalls to direct those who are causing an obstruction to move to one side. If everyone from elite club runners to Batman seeded themselves correctly everyone would enjoy their own particular race.
There are a couple of events which are RACES I will no longer take part in because of this.
I will also be doing the Lincoln Santa FUN RUN and I would be completely out of order to shout and push past people so I will not as it is a FUN RUN
Whatever you do - enjoy - respect.
Smile as you weave thru the jogging masses,pass them by with a nice greeting and a smile,
Use the first few minutes of bobbing and weaving as a nice warm up to get into a natural stride,it stops you from going off too quickly,
Enjoy the journey not just the finish.
re enjoying aggro, no i'm just a little naive and believe in karma, that if i do 'the right thing' others will see my example and follow suit, thus avoiding the problem for everyone. it's the opposite attitude to your 'lowest common denominator approach'
but yes, I am english so it is in my nature to have a winge whilst not taking any action...queues, don't get me started on queues!
zac, the words: nail, head, hit come to mind, I loved doing the London Santa run last year, 2,000 people in santa suits running around battersea park was fantastic fun! not a pb in sight i don't think