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to bike or to swim .... ???

am fast approaching race season ... my running is good cant complain at all no thank you. MY bike is coming on nicely (get odd twinge but thats age i guess) my swim is so so, man from atlantis meets barbi - I supose if i am fair I have grasped the basics & can manage a 500m sprint swim (with not too much emphasis on the sprint bit) ...... however my dilema is thus

[ol][*]I can look to getting a bike upgrade over the summer OR

[*]I can go do a T.I workshop [/ol]

comments welcomed .......

madnurse [:D]


  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673

    But seriously I reckon is comes down how much difference you think the bike or TI instruction will make to your overall time..

    I'd be inclined to think that the bike might make more of an impact assuming that you are confident that you will be able to swim the distance (especially as you'll be in a wet suit)

    that said would a bike at TI course prices be good enough for you? and make such a difference to your modified mountain bike times..

    so that brings us back to both...TI course and a bike on interest free credit for 2 years [:D]

  • DOtriHarderDOtriHarder Posts: 307
    "I believe" brothers and sisters, yes "i believe"[:(]

    I am sure that there are more minutes to be saved by sorting your bike legs and your bike, but not at the expense of your swim training.

    In an oly the elite swimmers are at 20mins but generally we are around 30-35mins. The elite cyclists are at 57mins the rest of us are at 1:10 - 1:40. in the run the elites are at 32mins the "bulk" of us are at 40 - 50mins.

    London is a flat bike course and flat run. so any power gains you make by working on power for the hills can be translated into effort on the flat ie SPEED. Thin tyres, max pressure, minimum frontal area, minimum drag.

    You have 3 months before London you could prioritise 1 discipline for each month starting with the worst one now. don't stop the others but place the real priority on the one discipline. 4 weeks of intense training in one discipline will take you to the verge of over training then you swop priorities and effectiviely rest the 1st discipline. "the benefits come not from training but from the rest in between."

    Get your bike sorted. and keep thinking in the swim.

  • 3speed3speed Posts: 16

    thought you were having swimming lessons up there?

    The ti workshop is a lot of money for under 7 hours in the pool. I'd be more inclined to do the bike and persevere with the swim business as you are now.

    I'm sure the ti course can't tell you anything you don't really already know.

    If you want any advice or want to ask any questions on swimming (no matter how basic they might seem) - just ask...I teach n' coach at the local club here.

    all the best,

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    David - "I beleive" Am considered beyond beleif by most of those around me (they thought that before tri as well hmm) ... i know i can only make up so much time on the swim .. its more to do with my efficiency of swimming (swim for ever on breaststroke & although distinctly improved will get towards oxygen debt on crawl if not 250% focused which isnt alwasys easy). I also know I can make up time on the bike from my swim. There are so rather nice bikes out there on the 0% jobby option eeeek

    HI 3 .. you have good recall I was getting lessons which helped however the swim teacher although had basics to pass on wasnt happy with ideollogy of TI so after a few sessions we parted company. NOt to knock the guy I found the the confidence to grasp freestyle but found I was learning more from the TI book and simply going back day after day to the pool. Another option might be to bribe the tri coach at my club to do some 1-1 sessions with me over the next four weeks (he a TI swim coach also).

    & Loon !!! (aptly named) - you will win me no favours with the bank or the holiday fund ... even I ain't derranged enough to go with the both option (at least i dont think i is)

    there is only one realistic option ... i need to find a sponsor ... I wonder if the NHS has a little pot of reserve funds for such cases ....

    el mad one [:)][:)][:)]
  • DOtriHarderDOtriHarder Posts: 307
    Mad - i think the Tri coach bribing idea has to be tops. 10 mins at the end of a session works wonders. My swim coach is not TI but has seen and read the stuff and agrees with a lot of it, it falls in with the way she teaches anyway. I have learnt so much in 4 months just by talking to her and telling her that i need her critical eye (not on my Trisuit) She responded by deconstructing my stroke and then helping me to put it back together in the correct order.

    A lot of swim teachers will just give you the session afraid(?) to tell to how to improve unless you really ask them ( i know you have).

    Some of it is just time in the water being relaxed with the stroke and learning the timing, you've started that so keep going.

    Is all your swimming in session time with squad or do you just go to the public time and swim? I have always found that i lack motivation in public time. I must have direction i must be told what to do , then i just get on and do it. (Yes miss i have been a naughty boy!)


  • fatmattfatmatt Posts: 145

    i'm more or less self taught at swimming, with the odd pointer from other swimmers in my club and can now swim 5:30 for 400, the thing that sticks out in your last message for me is that you have found that with T.I. you made great improvements from the t.i. book by simply going back DAY AFTER DAY!!! thats all i did, read a bit, watched a bit and tried to think about what i was doing, but most of all, i just went back day after day,

    good luck

    fat matt
  • DOtriHarderDOtriHarder Posts: 307
    Matt - I think i could do 400m before 5:30[;)] thats really going every day

    Rock on

  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673

    regarding swim efficincy and speed check out the 220 bit on more haste less speed regarding swim pace

    it basically stated that slowing the swim down to 80%(I think) max speed can make you fresher for the bike allowing you to go faster...

    Dotri... I kinda of agree with your swim teacher in that TI is only one method of acheiving the same "fish" like swimming goal and other methods follow similar lines.

    Kinda like when bruce lee created his form of karate he borrowed from just about every other fighting style going to create the "ultimate" fighting style

  • jazdogjazdog Posts: 223
    I'd go for the bike option myself... especially if you're on a mountain bike... the road bike'll get you in the best aero position and you'll be able to generate a bit more power and speed...

    however... this thread from the TriScotland Coaching forum is really interesting and mirrors the discussions above... they're all age groupers I think but the principles can apply to us newbies too!


    Loon's definitely got the right idea tho... I'd go for both... [:D][:D]

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    hi Jazz - thanks for the link really interesting read ... am afraid is one or the other ... then theres the mindfield of which bike (not even going there just yet although have a few ideas all too expensive but hey).

    I guess I must plod on trying to re-apply TI throughout. still feels very hit and miss most of the time. then again if it weren't a challenge I would have got bored switched off and gone to play out with my mates instead.

    madnurse [:)]

    ps loonytoon is proof that "care in the community" can work ....
  • DOtriHarderDOtriHarder Posts: 307
    Jazz - Like the Scottish link but don't like the idea of swimming 30K per week. Swimming about 4k at present.[&:]

    Good tips on stroke technique tho'

  • BonusBBonusB Posts: 279
    I think time wise you'll get the greatest return from buying a bike. The only major thing I find with the swim is getting out of the pool with enough energy to crank those pedals to make it worthwhile actually having the bike. So lon as you can achieve that then the bike is the next area to gain time before going back and concentrating on refining the swim more.

    Swam yesterday for the first time after the race on Sunday, nearly managed to drown myself and a few others. Would have succeeded if I hadn't drunk half the pool in the process. ergh.
  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    Removing half the volume of the pool is always a good way of being able to stand in the deep end..its a pratice i regulary part take in..

    A better bike will allow the same speed as the mountain bike but with less effort meaning that if the swim takes it out of you its possible to "recover" on the bike...something you can't do on the swim..and if the swim goes okay then you can go faster on the road bike for the same effort..

    care in the where? you are assuming this isn't been typed from the ward



    surely 30,000m of swiming a week requires care in the community

  • jazdogjazdog Posts: 223
    Us Scots are hardy blokes and lasses you know... [:D][:D]

    30k a week is clearly excessive but like you say wanting to be a tri coach and train like an elite you'd have to be cared for somewhere... I'm not sure the community is the right place... a cage at the bottom of a lake perhaps?

    Has anyone got the swim smooth DVD 220 are giving away with subscriptions this month? (sorry to hijack your link Mad... the DVD might help your swimming (and mine) as well as TI)

  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    If i tried 30km a week i wouldn't need the cage to be at the bottom of the lake....

    They are also offering that dvd with money off as well..

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    assuming that you have one rest day per week 30km works out at 200 lengths of a 25m pool per day .... surely that even beyond IM needs given the training needs of the other two disciplines on top.

    ????? dunno am just a bear with a small brain
  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    this taking off .. i have a few bikes in mind KUOTA K-Factor & Guru Cron'alu .. will they work on the pool bottom ??? will the chlorine / salt affect the mechanism of the bike ???

    damn you loon & 0% credit cards !!!!!!!!!!
  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    reading the thread the poster seemed to exclude all other training to get his desired swimming results

    its does seem excessive though...

    ...I merely made the suggestion that interest free might a good option to spread the cost - you started this thread asking which one to go for..

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    "the poster " eh ......blimey we is getting stand off-ish .... if only I was just doing swimming - just putting more emphasis on it for now ... so need to get cheshire sprint done .. wil feel so much better about the whole situation then ... then again I cant be too worried given my interest in spending more money that and am now looking at one more olympic (jersey) in Sept ..

    am begginging to doubt my mental capacity more than my swiming ... is that progress ??

    madnurse (phil) [:D]
  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    sorry "fusion-coach" or summat...

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    fusion - coach ?????????? que ??

  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    The guy on the tri scotland forum who did 30,000 metre is a week...jazdog posted the link
  • jazdogjazdog Posts: 223
    Hey Loon

    The "poster" on the tri-scotland website was one of the Scottish national coaches...most of the replies seemed to think there was no point block training in that way... he thought although time savings would be negligible his stamina and efficiency would improve.. I think it was an experimental thing... (more mental than experi...[:D] if you ask me!)

  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    cheers jaz...thats who I ment think nurse got confused by my poor english a couple of posts back ...

    with you there on there on the dropping the experi bit. I assume that being a full time tri coach he could experiment in this way..

    It would be interesting to see how stamia and efficiency altered once he (or any other person) went back to normal training..

  • BonusBBonusB Posts: 279
    I'd be interested to see what they mean by normal...
  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    if the average bloke on the street trains 3 times per week & national guidelines advocate 4 - 5 times per week, that might been seen as societallly derived 'normal' ...which then by default makes the average triathlete erm abnormal ....

    discuss ....

    el mad 1
  • BonusBBonusB Posts: 279
    Then I'd argue our scottish friend mentioned above is deemed certifiable [:D]

    Normaility is boring any way!
  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    El mad one..

    Did you decide which path you were going to take?

    Having been bullied into getting a road bike my mate who used to cycle race in his younger days - I can vouch for the fact that they are different world from an mtb...more than (in this am's ride) I could ever hope to achieve from improving swimming...

    Got mine from ebay...for more or less that same price I was gonna spend of MTB bits...

  • madnursemadnurse Posts: 782
    Hi Loon - I think I have pullled off a deal on a tri bike with a new tri shop that just opened nearby - the supply the bike at cost with loats of litle extras in return for a bit of media coverage. (fiingers crossed) so what bike have you got now then ? As for the swim it seems to be getting there (despite the war wound - damned shrapnel) did 2.5 k session on sat and at pace (with tri club) - be about right I get my swim nealry on track swing this deal for the tri bike and I'l crash n burn straight out of T1.

  • loonytoonloonytoon Posts: 673
    Nice one re the deal...and the swimming 2 and half K that is mad ;)

    its a Peugeot 10years old...don't know a great deal about it really ,..my bully did all the bidding was usful to have him spot decent bikes of yesteryear...

    took about (est based on feeling and speed when I had to stop and jog coz of the flat) 8minutes of my time trial time...last attempt was about 2 weeks ago ...so some is better fitness but most is the fact the bike and me create much less disturbance in the force when travelling

    what bike did you get/getting?

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