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Stroke Counting / Strokes per length

At the moment, the only reason I have to count strokes is to see how many I can do in a row [:)]. But now that I have mastered the art of being able to actually do a length of front crawl, I can see the need to count my strokes per length, as this will become a key measure of the development of my technique (that, and breathing).



But, do you count the glide (either from the start, or from the kick off at the turn) as part of your stoke per length? i.e. is trying to glide as far as you can a valid thing in reducing SPL. I can find lots of references on the web about SPL - but nothing that talks about the glide part. I've been doing some sneaky observations - starting off at the same time as other swimmers, and having practiced my "superman glide" a bit, I can see that I overtake/catch up the other swimmers before I take my first stroke... so a glide looks like a good thing (obviously, you can only do this once in an open water swim, so I am aware that this only relates to pool based efforts).



So, how does the glide fit in to SPL?



[I'm thinking of placing an order for one of those fingerbob counting things recommended in another thread, as I love counting things]

Comments

  • TommiTriTommiTri Posts: 879
    well provided you tend to kick off with the same kind of velocity and start stroking at roughly the same place it wont matter too much, as counting strokes per length is more of a on going way of accessing your length per stroke and so hopefully an increase in efficiency. So as long as you are not gliding for abnormally long it should all still be relative.



    Try swimming golf, I find it to be more focussed than just counting strokes, as it brings in the element of speed, i.e doing 25m in 15 strokes but taking 20 secs, is not as good as doing the length in say 18 secs, but with 16 strokes. The added number of 34 is less than the original 35, so shows an improvement.
  • GHarvGHarv Posts: 456
    Won't cover strokes but try one of these finger length counters - mines on order



    http://www.activeplanet.co.uk/scindex.php



    G
  • Jelly legsJelly legs Posts: 278
    jack, you looking at it far to much in depth mate, you got to chill.



    If you have only just managed one length front crawl, you got alot more things to worry about than how many strokes its taking you.





    Build on what you have done, 1 length now try two, then three etc.



    Secondly, its work going to a swim clinic, most public pools run these free of charge.



    Technique has a big part to play but to be honestly brutal not when you can only swim one length. Start with the basics and work on that.





    A thought for you.



    If you do a pool based tri and the first person out the pool does his 400 meters in say 6 mins and yours is done in 10 mins.



    Where do you think most of that time can be gained back, thats right on the bike or run, the swim is not the most important leg of a tri.( in my opinion). But so many people put to much on the swim bit because its easier to train for than the run or bike.

    In the sence that you just grab your shorts and your off, you can have a rest when u want, no one really pushes themself to much in the pool( ok maybe the dedicated do).



    Get your bike shoes on or your trainers and put the miles in mate, in the long run it will help you more.
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    Is that because you can' do a long run in the pool?
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    oooops 'can't do a long run' is what I meant...
  • Jack HughesJack Hughes Posts: 1,262
    jack, you looking at it far to much in depth mate, you got to chill.

    Not in my nature!

    If you have only just managed one length front crawl, you got alot more things to worry about than how many strokes its taking you.


    I am a planner. I plan in detail, out far into the future. I do, however, continually revise/adapt/fine tune my plans. I have a three season plan at the moment. Obviously leading up to the Olympics in 2012 [:)].



    Currently, I am planning on being able to do a super sprint/sprint pool based event in September, so I am thinking well ahead.



    Another key facet of my personality is that I don't do anything unless I can do it perfectly. Which isn't necessarily a good thing...



    Build on what you have done, 1 length now try two, then three etc.



    Secondly, its work going to a swim clinic, most public pools run these free of charge.
    Don't worry - I'm already going to the local public pools adult lessons. When I have progressed I will then go to my tri clubs novices sessions. When I have further improved I will attend a TI workshop. It's all in the master plan.



    Technique has a big part to play but to be honestly brutal not when you can only swim one length. Start with the basics and work on that.

    Indeed, but I want a simple metric of measuring improvement. I want to stay focussed on technique - not thrashing around for speed!



    A thought for you.



    If you do a pool based tri and the first person out the pool does his 400 meters in say 6 mins and yours is done in 10 mins.


    I'm not interested in the time, I'm interested in what condition when I get out of the pool. Am I completely exhausted after 10 minutes, or very fresh for the next two legs.



    I'm age group competitive at running and cycling, so all I'm interested in is preserving my energy as much as possible.

    Where do you think most of that time can be gained back, thats right on the bike or run, the swim is not the most important leg of a tri.( in my opinion). But so many people put to much on the swim bit because its easier to train for than the run or bike.


    Absolutely - that's why the strategy is to be able to swim efficiently and effectively, rather than fast at any cost. I'm more than happy to loose time in the swim, so long as I remain relatively fresh. I know I will make up those minutes in my better disciplines.

    In the sence that you just grab your shorts and your off, you can have a rest when u want, no one really pushes themself to much in the pool( ok maybe the dedicated do).


    Agreed.

    Get your bike shoes on or your trainers and put the miles in mate, in the long run it will help you more.

    Well, because I can't run at the moment, I am swimming. This last two weeks I have swam more hours than I have in the rest of my life put together! I _plan_ to improve quickly.

  • GGBGGB Posts: 482
    GHarv wrote:


    Won't cover strokes but try one of these finger length counters - mines on order



    http://www.activeplanet.co.uk/scindex.php



    G



    Strangely enough about ten mins before you posted this I ordered one too - been meaning to order one for weeks.



  • bennybenny Posts: 1,314
    GGB wrote:
    ORIGINAL: GHarv



    Won't cover strokes but try one of these finger length counters - mines on order



    http://www.activeplanet.co.uk/scindex.php



    G



    Strangely enough about ten mins before you posted this I ordered one too - been meaning to order one for weeks.





    There is another topic about this somewhere.

    I have the sportcount gadget for while now; I would recommend it to everyone. I wear it on 90% of my swim sessions. Definately makes moretime to think about technique, rather than thinking 'was it 43 or 44 now???'.

  • clarkey30clarkey30 Posts: 270
    Can i ask what is a decent or recommended number of strokes per length?



    Im coming in at around the 23 - 25 mark at the minute for around a 28 second length.



    And also how much slower is it in a pool compared to open water as ive been swimming my arse off but dont seem to be any quicker this? I was coming in at around the 30 minute mark in open water races last year and really thought with the sessions i would get that down considerably
  • al_fordal_ford Posts: 119
    clarkey - I'm about the same as you. When I'm fresh and really concentrate I can get my stroke count down to below 20 but it creeps up at the end of a session. I'm trying to get consistent over the whole session - much of it depend on how hard I push off the end wall.



    Interested to know the speed, stroke count and 1500m time for the rest of you.
  • MowfMowf Posts: 272
    I usually come in at around 18 per 25m. 16 if I try to get it down. A swim coach told me I should be aiming to hit 13...



  • jon_gjon_g Posts: 318
    im a swimmer so i can get as low as 11 if i'm trying for it! when i get tired it drops to 16 max. all about technique, get in there and do more drills[:D][:D]
  • NobzNobz Posts: 22
    jon_g wrote:


    im a swimmer so i can get as low as 11 if i'm trying for it! when i get tired it drops to 16 max. all about technique, get in there and do more drills[:D][:D]



    That sounds about right to me. For a longish (400m+) decent paced swim I'd average 14, goes up for sprint distances and probably down to 12/13 for distance swims (1500m+).



    There is a fine line to this though, there will be a point for everyone where the time/stroke count will be at peak balance. Not to say this can't be moved by improving technique and fitness though.
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    If I try that low (slow) then my swim feels like stroke, glide, stop stroke etc etc...which drills can prevent my stutterswim?
  • MowfMowf Posts: 272
    Britspin wrote:


    If I try that low (slow) then my swim feels like stroke, glide, stop stroke etc etc...which drills can prevent my stutterswim?



    I second that. I managed 15 this morning, but the last one was practically juust kicking for about a metre. Not sure if that counts!



    I've heard catch-up is good for stroke length. Is that right?
  • clarkey30clarkey30 Posts: 270
    After watching IMUK last week i noticed however that they go hell for leather! there was certainly no stroke glide going on just a lot of windmilling, and they were seriously shifting!



    Im confused
  • GGBGGB Posts: 482
    When I did my club 400m TT about a month ago, my first ever 400 attempt, my stroke count averaged at 28. I now aim for about 20 but it varies up to 23/24 - I am only 5'7" so this may be a part of the reason for the higher stroke counts for me .. possibly, along with been a beginner.

  • BopomofoBopomofo Posts: 980
    there was certainly no stroke glide going on just a lot of windmilling


    At that level of fitness stroke glide goes away because you can actually sustain the constant power. To a beginner or intermediate swimmer the pro windmilling might look a million miles away from the long slow efficient stroke our coaches teach us, but if you are supremely fit and very aggressive on the recovery then it all starts to fall into place.



    (Learning a more aggressive recovery was a light bulb moment for me.... :-) )
  • jon_gjon_g Posts: 318
    aggressive recovery! i like that!



    for me i dont really ever stop moving forward, i'm constantly pulling myself through the water, it's just a very small recovery. think it's got something to do with holding the water and applying pressure through your whole forearm, using it as a palle rather than trying to use just your hand. my lightbulb moment was reading on another forum (shock horror! i know, i am ashamed[:(]) about imagining you are swimming over barrels and having to use your whole arm to pull yourself over them. so your forearm is parallel to the wall at the end through the stroke
  • FlavadaveFlavadave Posts: 749
    Oops, posted in wrong thread...
  • NobzNobz Posts: 22
    clarkey30 wrote:


    After watching IMUK last week i noticed however that they go hell for leather! there was certainly no stroke glide going on just a lot of windmilling, and they were seriously shifting!



    Im confused



    It's difficult to compare pool stroke count to open water but looking at some vids from Hawaii last year the front runners and they're on about 50 strokes per minute. Working backwards say they're doing the 3800m in 55mins that's 1.27 per 100m so 64 strokes/100m.



    In a 25m pool swim taking out the push off from a turn and entry into the next I'm probably only swimming 16/17m. So 12 stokes per 17m or 70 strokes per 100m. Only a rough guide but you're still looking at around 65-70 stokes per 100m of actual swimming.



    I think the differentiation needs to be made between a low stroke count and a slow arm speed. It's all about the power each stroke brings, if you have poor power in your stroke then doing 12 strokes a length is going to involve a lot of gliding and a lot of kicking and overall going slower. It's all about going further with each stroke, not about a longer glide. At no point should you actually be stopping 'swimming' and gliding, your arm should either be going forward in the water or pulling backwards, never just out in front of you.



    Don't know if that all makes sense - it does in my head though [:D]
  • jon_gjon_g Posts: 318
    well put Nobz!
  • Jack HughesJack Hughes Posts: 1,262
    A very simple question for you: What is a stroke? Do I count for each arm, or just, say the right arm?
  • nivaghnivagh Posts: 595
    One stroke for each arm.
  • Jack HughesJack Hughes Posts: 1,262
    Bother. That means I have a lot of improvement to do! (I was hoping I was double counting). I'm far to embarrassed to say what I am currently doing in a 25m pool.
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