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Creatine?

A little advice needed.

Coming from a gym background, I've used creatine for two years or so. Now working towards first tri, is there still benefit in using it?

Also worries compounded by reading somewhere that it can cause kidney problems and being born with only one of the little b*ggers I'm kinda keen to look after it...

Comments

  • risris Posts: 1,002
    ooh, ooh, can i be first to make a public idiot of myself on something i know nothing about?!

    the only stuff i know about creatine was a piece on a very recent tri-talk podcast. it was suggested that creatine is very good for short, repeated bursts of energy (somehting to do with phostphate wonk in the muscles blah drone zzz) and then wondered how relevant this was to triathletes.

    i don't take it so it didn't really catch my interest too much. worth looking up on itunes or at their website if you want to hear it though.
  • risris Posts: 1,002
    without wishing to add to the derailing too much, after three minutes of a triathlon i am usually in a state, but i'm not sure i could call it steady.
  • SilverbackSilverback Posts: 131
    And there was me in my ignorance expecting a yay or nay response.

    Eagerly await your musings on the site that must not be named, Mr Conehead Sir.
  • Coming from a completely uninformed standpoint .. when doing a long endurance race, it will involve sudden bouts of extra energy, to overtake someone, or to push that bit harder for a moment ... this is completely unsustainable for more than a few secs, yet the race may be hours long, so what is it in the muscle that gets exhausted in those few secs? and is this where Creatine comes in?
    If so then surely it's relevant .. ?

    I started off using Maximuscle Cyclone which is an all round muscle, strength and energy shake and that included Creatine .. but have stopped using it and now just use Powerbar energy drink.
    May go back to it as still have half a tub left and now that i'm capable of doing much more any performance differences should be that much more notable.

    in theory ..
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    ah yes but would creatine loading actually help in that first 3 mins?
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    Unscientific, but from my own experience - Creatine does help in the energy cycle, and has other side benefits that help us triathletes, if I remember right it somehow helps with recovery and possibly lactate flushing. However, the big downside is you hold extra water along side it. Depending on your original weight this can be several pounds.

    I think in theory creatine will help more in swimming, and cycling as body weight is supported, and possibly in a competition by the time you get to the run you'll have shed some of the extra weight in sweat. I think those are big maybes though.

    IMHO, use creatine during off season and build-up, as it will help training, however stop at least 2 weeks before a competition, and enjoy a quick weight loss of a few pounds
  • id give it a dodge man, especially if you only operating on one kidney!

    But if you want to use it, there are some creatine types which dont cause as much water retention - such as CEE
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    How are you taking your creatine? All creatine is not creat(ine)d equal...with carbs? In solution? Pre mix?
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    I understood CEE was just a better delivery system, and more stable, as far as I am aware the water storage is a function of the creatine in the muscles, so you will always experience it.?

    Brit, not sure if that's directed to me, or others? I took it mixed with water and carbs to benefit from the insulin delivery system, and as freshly mixed where possible to avoid degradation (is that spelt right? )

    BTW there are much, much better supplements to take for triathlons, that also have a good number of studies done on them. Citrulline Mallate, and Beta Alanine for example.
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    Just a general enquiry, I hear pre mixes apart from tasting like hell, are a bit rubbish too, as creatine in solution does not store well. Sounds like you optimised your results by doing the best as research suggests.
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    Going back to the OP, creatine could possibly cause kidney problems due to the water storage issue? and/ or your body dealing with excess? However anything I've read has stated it's safe to use.

    Do you get any sort of regular check up on your kidney? If so has it shown any change over the two years you've been using creatine? If it does, stop!

    Also remember to cycle usage, I think current thinking is 2 months on, 1 month off. Remember the body is a very very clever thingy, and will constantly adapt to what we do to it.

    Brit - yep, pre-mixes are a waste of time, apart from maybe CEE. Creatine downgrades to creatinine very quickly once mixed. Might as well flush your money down the pan!
  • Tesseract wrote:
    I understood CEE was just a better delivery system, and more stable, as far as I am aware the water storage is a function of the creatine in the muscles, so you will always experience it.?
    I may have been lied to by the salesman. He said it was good cause it didnt cause retention...but it also had arganine and some NOX compound. Vitamin shops own brand if you know it?
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    On Conies comments, I don't see the benefit of gaining a benefit for the first 3 mins, although arguably seconds gained anywhere are still seconds gained. Where I think creatine benefits the triathlete, are any of the little bursts of energy we use through the race, overtaking, hills etc. and in particular on the bike due to lowered lactate production, or improved clearing, can't remember which.

    Still think the extra weight outweighs (pun intended) the benefits.
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    ... wish we could edit comments.

    Dodgy salespeople and adverts :roll: I haven't looked at CEE in depth so can't say for sure, and limited in what I can access just now. Arginine doesn't do much, other than as an essential amino acid, but I think the studies on it are pretty rubbish. I looked on some stuff on Nitreous Oxide after our chat the other day, still not convinced of any benefit to the athlete, seems to more for blood flow and "pump" for the muscle-market.

    Like I mentioned above, the best I've seen with solid studies, are Beta Alanine and Citrulline, but they're a bit expensive to take right, and in the right amounts. I've just started so I'll see how it goes for Strathclyde.
  • shadowone1shadowone1 Posts: 1,408
    I thought creatine was realively poorly accepted by the body. It was also near impossible to mix, you've got the grit taste factor, sometimes the aching stomach as its absorbed.

    There are various forms to take , powder mixed into water - tastes like shit, capsules - poorly absorbed by the body, and under the tongue. Problem with under the tongue is the creatine needs to ingested so this one is quite crap.

    I remember using creatine for about 2 years and while I was heavier then than I am now, I wasn't muscle mania. In fact I was just as skinny. I was more toned but that was down to the Thai Boxing. Creatine is crap in my experience, I often used to think it was more placebo than anything else. Its main sellling point was explosive power and for Thai Boxing where fighting last for max 15mins it was ideal. For triathlon, I'd stay clear. No benefits to it all.

    Oh I've not been near the stuff in years so sorry if comments out of date.
  • joolzdjoolzd Posts: 245
    If you don't mind me saying and I hope this is the case, but why do you need it for an OD tri anyway - surely just a proper training programme, nutrition and overall commonsense should see you get a good/realistic time? - I know I can see the responses now...but that's just my general feeling on the subject.

    I know a little about the stuff, would never use it, but I see little benefit at that level.... for further distances then surely the more slow releasing energy stuff is much better - muscles do of course help carry the oxygen etc blah blah blah....far more experts here than me to go into detail but you know what I mean....

    Just my two pennies worth!!
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    That pretty much sums up my response to most of the questions that I get about supplementation..can you tell me there are no more improvements in strength, speed, endurance, training, diet, recovery etc etc/ If we have exhausted all of that, then lets look at the evidence & decide.
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    ... but why take that approach to supplements? I don't get it

    In every other aspect we're trying to improve, yet there's a school of thought that says "oh don't bother with that, just train more/ eat better" Yet, no one would say "listen don't bother running, just focus on your cycling and swimming, you don't want to improve your running until you've nailed those two".

    Or, to put it another way, it's OK to spend on bits for your bike that may, or may not, shave seconds off your time, quite often without solid evidence, yet when it comes to supplementation we're like cavemen with something shiny. It's not a case of needing those bits, just wanting them, and I'd take the same view with supplements.

    I'm not saying we should go out and try every snake-oil/ miracle cure out there (and there's loads), but there are supplements that can give improvements, that have a number of studies behind them. I see nothing wrong with trying them to see if they help, if they do, great, if not don't bother again. But you will save yourself money if you do a little research first.

    I see a strong link here with the discussion in the thread about training innovation in triathlon, and how there seems to be a resistance to new things.
  • I think this is a fundamental difference in the mindsets of triathletes/endurance and power/weight sports.

    I dont think many triathletes read the literature quite the same as bodybuilders do. I am not even as knowledgeable on the latter as you but i have read a ton of bodybuilding stuff and when i goto the gym and see the serious/semi serious guys they seem to be quite knowledgeable on nutrition and supps, where as triathletes know more about spokes and strokes and seem to know little about nutrition.....as shown by a certain weight loss argument in recent memory.

    Then again im gonna look dumb on sunday when my tyre bursts and i start pumping it full of ZMAand BCAA's to try to fix it.....
  • TesseractTesseract Posts: 280
    not as dumb as me in my bananannanannanana skin wetsuit...


  • Might be taking your advice on the baby oil
  • BlinkybazBlinkybaz Posts: 1,144
    I have reading this thread all daychio n ors coputer say NO to loging in. so........

    The first 3 mins must be powered by entusisum (spekking?) and adrenaline! I reckon that must be what gets to areobic!

    I cant see creatine having much of a place with triathlon or endurance sport due to its muscle gain weight gain properties. I know we have sort of touched on this and I am aware that what has been said can work for some but it strikes me that muscle recovery drinks are much more productive or muscle building proteins. if i way off the mark here please let me know!!!!
  • SilverbackSilverback Posts: 131
    And i thought it was just a minority interest question...

    Am coming to the conclusion that if you believe it will make a difference then go for it. All sports rely on a level of self confidence and mere mortals such as me need all the confidence we can get. This includes the ability to fill out a wetsuit in the right places.

    Along with the excellent feedback from the forum have been looking at various books inc Jon Friel's Bible and am amazed at the lack of a definitive answer to date.

    Have also consulted Silverback's paymaster general and she prefers me with broader shoulders...
  • BlinkybazBlinkybaz Posts: 1,144
    Self belief is a wonderful thing. f it takes creatine to give you it them it wil work for you.
    Just aware of the size and weight gain.
    I used my protein whey for awhile a saw no cange. Since i have just used a bana milkshake after exercise to epair he muscles and I am not bigger but more defined.

    I suppose at the nd of he dy its what flaots your boat and the expense would sink mine.
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    My point about supplements was the approach I take when in the gym & I am asked the question by spotty teens who have been a couple of times, made their arms hurt & want instant results by sucking in Reginald Armsarebigger's latest super mega protein power mix with added camel snot. So not quite the same as AG triathletes I admit, however reasearch by Tesseract notwithstanding I have to disagree with Coma about knowledgable body builders, there research is mostly via Mislead & Factless etc, those would be the mags produced by Weider who produce the supplements who finance the research...see where I am going?
    I am not opposed to supplements per se, but like drugs in sport they will never turn Mr/Ms average into Mr/Ms World beater, but that is how they are sold, usually on the back of dodgy research & manipulated results. As a wise lecturer said once...check out the ones (like creatine) that sports bodies have tried to or thought of banning, they are the ones that have an effect, the rest is just powder & cash in the bank for the companies.
    So by all means try them out, but know what you are taking, why you are taking it & monitor effects, as in most sports it is those that shorten recovery that are most effective, because it is the training that works, so the more you can do (in a smart & targetted way) the better you get.
  • Britspin wrote:
    spotty teens who have been a couple of times, made their arms hurt & want instant results by sucking in Reginald Armsarebigger's latest super mega protein power mix with added camel snot.
    Not those guys
    Britspin wrote:
    however reasearch by Tesseract notwithstanding I have to disagree with Coma about knowledgable body builders, there research is mostly via Mislead & Factless etc, those would be the mags produced by Weider who produce the supplements who finance the research...see where I am going?
    No no i mean like the actual factual bodybuilders. You know the ones who are actually big, and actually follow the proper nutrition plan. Plus they have www.bodybuilding.com supersite, which has articles are written by widely respected authors such as John Berardi and Shannon Clark . You ever been to www.triathlon.com ?
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    But we are not comparing like with like....yer big boys & girls are pros, I am generally addressing rookies & AGs. Plus I really don't need to bring up the 'other' elements in 'proper nutritional plans' do I?
    I have no beef (ha) with the pros..well except the gravy browning & turning it into a dieting contest..
  • Britspin wrote:
    But we are not comparing like with like....yer big boys & girls are pros, I am generally addressing rookies & AGs. Plus I really don't need to bring up the 'other' elements in 'proper nutritional plans' do I?
    I have no beef (ha) with the pros..well except the gravy browning & turning it into a dieting contest..
    True dat....

    I dont even know a pro triathlete from an amatuer.... Easier to tell with bodybuilders

    So are we like the average joes of triathlon? The elite echelons? or the spotty teenagers?
  • BritspinBritspin Posts: 1,655
    mostly average joes I think...pros are the carbon flash who you never even get to stare at their ass...spotty teens? Hmmm not sure.
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