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Swim like Phelps?

Hi Folks,

Here is another training question I thought I would throw out for general debate. This is something that’s been puzzling me since I began ‘intensive’ tri-training for IMUK, and something which I am think I am going to try and implement for next season’s training. I also think it has links and parallels with the thread on triathletes learning from other sports

When the topic of training comes up you frequently hear people talking about tri specific training. This is most prevalent when in the area of swimming with ‘swim for tri’ coaching and talk of tri specific swim technique, but you also get it with cycling and running too. Surely the only thing which differentiates triathlon is that it is the combination of all three disciplines?

So, my questions are thus: Why the focus on tri specific training? Do you see triathlon as a single sport, or do you see it as a combination of the tree? Why is it that relatively few triathletes seem to do their training as part of differentiated swim/bike/run clubs? Or do you?

Next season triathlon will, of course, remain my focus; but I also want to try to compete in each of the single disciplines individually. When I swim I want to test myself against dedicated swimmers, when I cycle I want to be competitive against dedicated TTers and when I run I want to be in the mix with dedicated runners.

Surely the ultimate goal in tri should be to swim like Phelps, TT like Wiggins and run like Gebrselassie?

Comments

  • durhamvamdurhamvam Posts: 246
    I suppose that one will try to be the best one can in each discipline. I would think that a triathlete would never be able to compete with someone who was dedicated to performing in just one area, firstly because of the time they spend focussing on just that one discipline and secondly because if you swam like Phelps you'd probably have a build a bit like his too which I guess wouldn't be ideal on the bike/run.

    You see the same thing in professional three day eventing where it takes a special sort of horse to do three events well but the standard in the show jumping/dressage isn't as high as for the specialists which takes a different sort of horse.

    I do my training with my tri club and started swimming with a swim for tri course before I thought I would ever do a tri because they were friendly and welcoming and didn't sneer at me because I couldn't swim a length front crawl. I know now that they were just trying to lure me over to the dark side.......
  • jonEjonE Posts: 1,113
    Jack of all trades or master of one (or none)
    It is your choice,time and money definately withstanding.
  • jamewahjamewah Posts: 113
    Swim Like Paul Biedermann you mean ??
  • if you smell the sweet aroma of cinnomon after the race, its not your tail pipe, its . . . @ jamewah
  • JulesJules Posts: 987
    In a tri you are not necessarily trying to swim the distance as fast as you can, it may benefit you to be slightly slower but to conserve energy for the bike and run. I imagine in a swim race you would get your legs contributing more, in a tri you want to conserve them.

    Also I believe Phelps only breathes on one side not bilatterally, which of course means he is rubbish
  • TRIumphantTRIumphant Posts: 850
    I've started running with a Run Club to try to improve my running, which is my weakest leg. And in order to mix up my training I've also entered a couple of Aqauthlons and OW swim races, and over the winter be looking at doing some Duathlons. Not got enough courage to go for a cycling TT just yet.

    However, any time I can achieve in a pure run or swim event, I have to try to remember that I'm unlikely to achieve during a Tri.

    Keep on bricking!
  • Swim Like Paul Biedermann you mean ??
    I was watching the day 2 highlights on Iplayer this morning (which partly inspired this thread) and saw Phelps beat Biedermann in the semi... he looked like he was struggling but really flew through in the final 50m. Sounds like tomorrows highlights will be fascinating!

    I take the body shape point at an elite level: I doubt Phelps could run a decent marathon and his shoulders aren't very aero, but for 90% of AG triathletes body shape isn't the main limiting factor so much as time to train etc.

    Again with the jack of all trades argument, I think this applies more to elites than to AG athletes. At an elite level the marginal cost of each unit of improvement is so high that would be nigh on impossible to become THAT good at any single discipline let alone all three.

    I suppose my question is most relevant to competitive AG athletes where there are potentially significant gains to be made by improving technique. Surely the best place to look to improve that technique is amongst those who are specialists in the discipline? Sure I’m unlikely to win many single discipline events just as I’m equally unlikely to win any triathlons, but I do want to improve.

    What better way to improve than to put yourself up against people who are better than you? And who better to learn from than the specialists?
  • Jack HughesJack Hughes Posts: 1,262
    I think I'm in the Jack of all trades camp

    I want to be able to run the best I can. To a certain extent, my running events are still my "A" races.

    I enjoy cycling, a close second to running, and want to be able to cycle as fast as I can - really want to put down some good TT times. This is important to me as Triathlon. Having really got into it again, and realising how much I like it, I also want to do some sportifs.

    I can't swim. And what to be able to swim! If I ever get good enough... and I'm not really sure what that is.. then I might think about swim racing in the same way as I do for running/cycling.

    My motiviations for Tri are two fold. 1) Injuries: I am mainly trying to be fit and healthy. Cross training allows me to keep exercising while out of someother sports. I only started learning to swim in earnest when injuries stopped me from running back in February. I had been toying with the idea for a while before hand - but wanted to get as good as I could at running (the idea was to running through the Winter and spring, then switch to cycling while it was light, then back to running in the Winter). Then learn to swim one day

    2) I have observed that even when I go as fast as I can in a running race, there are still people ahead of me. But, these never (with a few exceptions) do tris. So, I might be in the top quartile in a running race... so, in theory, I should be a lot further up the field in the run leg of a tri. I strongly suspect that the same will be true in the cycling. And, I guess, the training objective is to achieve the same level of performance in the swim. This is the "Jack of all trades, master of none" philosophy. If I was being cynical, it's a key driver in all multi-discipline events... it tends to be people that are a good, but not brilliant, that go for these things.

    Anyway, I expect to do more running races, more cycling races, than Tris in a given season. So, for me, an ideal season plan would be Running races, say one or two a month in the Winter. Transition to cycling and do one or two TTs a month, with a few select running races. Then fit in Duathlon (relatively early on), then a couple of Tris).

    My "A" race is November's Leeds Abbey Dash - because it is a great race for PBs.

    Obviously, injury has wiped out this year - so it's mainly been swimming with a bit of cycling. i.e. a year of base training in some of the disciplines. But I'm hopeful for next year!

    In summary: I see myself as runner and cyclist, rather than a triathlete, with a few Tris thrown in where I would hope to do better than in the individual events.

    That's the theory! When I put it to the test, it will no doubt change.
  • jonEjonE Posts: 1,113
    triathlon is all about pace,the quickest may not neccessarily win,each element has to be paced at such a speed as to gain optimum performance without a disproportionate loss on the others.
  • Jack HughesJack Hughes Posts: 1,262
    jon.E wrote:
    triathlon is all about pace,the quickest may not neccessarily win,each element has to be paced at such a speed as to gain optimum performance without a disproportionate loss on the others.
    That's a commonly held theory. Which I'm quite interested in testing.

    I'm not convinced that pacing should be viewed any differently than in other events. i.e. you need to pace for an hour or so (sprint), 2.5 hours for an OD, or whatever. In the same way as you need to pace yourself for an hours run (10 miles), or a 25 mile TT and so on. So, I would want to run the 5K leg of a sprint, at the same pace I would run a 10 mile. Maybe it's the same thing...

    Anyway, for a sprint, I would go as hard as I can for each event.

    Getting excited about Ilkley now! Thinking of going over the course in the next couple of days.
  • apana790apana790 Posts: 76
    What about Phil Graves? He's a triathlete and he dominated the Rudy Project time trial series rubbing the specialist's noses
  • julesojuleso Posts: 279
    I'm in a tri club & a cycle club (which I admit I'm too intimidated to show my face at yet!).

    I like triathlon because I get to wear bike clothes, running clothes and my swimming cozzie each a couple of times a week. Oh and have a tri suit. Imagine if every training session you did, you had to wear the same thing! How dull! I like the variety.
  • jonEjonE Posts: 1,113
    Jack Hughes wrote:
    [quote="jon.E":19w9agvl]triathlon is all about pace,the quickest may not neccessarily win,each element has to be paced at such a speed as to gain optimum performance without a disproportionate loss on the others.
    That's a commonly held theory. Which I'm quite interested in testing.

    I'm not convinced that pacing should be viewed any differently than in other events. i.e. you need to pace for an hour or so (sprint), 2.5 hours for an OD, or whatever. In the same way as you need to pace yourself for an hours run (10 miles), or a 25 mile TT and so on. So, I would want to run the 5K leg of a sprint, at the same pace I would run a 10 mile. Maybe it's the same thing...

    Anyway, for a sprint, I would go as hard as I can for each event.

    Getting excited about Ilkley now! Thinking of going over the course in the next couple of days.[/quote:19w9agvl]
    Pacing does get more relevant for the longer the distance,personally I find a slower consistant pace gets me a faster time overall than trying to do negative splits and blowing up 5 miles from the finish.It is trial and error.

    Good idea about going round the course,the downhill section can catch the unwary out on a wet day.
    Are you doing any marshalling on the day as well? and are you bringing the dog?
  • I can't imagine that anyone could go flat out in a 3 disciplines be it a supersprint or an IM, there has to be some level of energy retention and that is the unique aspect of triathlon. Not only that but teaching the body how best to quickly adapt after each transition likely has years of scientific sports research yet to come. For this reason i think triathlon clubs and tri specific investment are the future.
  • Currently reading Phelp's book and he has a useful swim main set, if anyone fancies testing it - 1x800m, 2x700m, 3x600m, 4x500m, 5x400m, 6x300m, 7x200m, 8x100m - he was doing this at age 15.
  • TRIumphantTRIumphant Posts: 850
    That's only 8 sets. What would I do in the other 4 months. Seriousy, that would probably take me all my waking day.
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