Home Chat General Chat

Target times for Olympic tri

dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
Hi,

I have first Olympic distance tri planned for July, and was wondering what sort of times/effort I should aim at, as compared to my times for the events on a stand alone basis. At sprint distance my experience is roughly:

Swim = stand alone time in pool MINUS 3% (wetsuit helps since I am poor swimmer...)
Bike = not really sure - havn't done stand alone time trials. But tri felt like going reasonably hard so say PLUS 3%
Run = stand alone time PLUS 10%-20%

1. How does that compare to other people's experience; and
2. Are the Sprint tri mark-ups(downs) likely to be about the same for Olympic distance (or does e.g. run get even worse relative to stand=-alone 10K because more knackered)

Many thanks for views.

dhcm

Comments

  • okennyokenny Posts: 231
    Don't worry about your times for your first OD!

    Worry about getting kicked in the face in the swim, worry about forgetting to pack all your stuff, worry about your bike being mechanically okay and worry about how you will do your transitions as fast as possible!

    Try to keep your pace somewhat under control on the bike. then just run like hell!

    There's no comparing training to an OD, especially when you don't know the course, the weather and your mood!
    Make sure you are prepared with kit and nutrition and practive the transitions.
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    Thanks, but advice to ignore times is not really what I was after. Any further thoughts on how stand alone times typically translate into OD tri times very welcome!

    Thanks all.

    dhcm
  • willieverfinishwillieverfinish Posts: 1,381
    Surely it's impossible to compare stand alone times to an OD especially as you've not done a stand alone bike time trial!!

    How can we tell you what time your looking at if you don't know how fast you are over 40km ? ?

    Regarding your run - is that on tarmac, grass, wet , dry, hot, cold, flat hilly, what are the variables for the race your doing ? is it a pool swim, lake, sea swim, is the gearing on your bike suitable for hills, the flat ... do you see where I'm coming from ?

    For me I'd say it's like comparing chalk and cheese.
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    Point taken, but surely a rough indication is possible - for a more experienced OD person at any rate?

    Or, if nothing useful can be said, how "tough" should each event feel? Take it easy or aim for threshold all the way?
  • willieverfinishwillieverfinish Posts: 1,381
    ok

    If yo train to HR then use that as your guide to how hard you should go in each discipline.

    if you don't use HR in training then I don't know what to say. You'll know what feels right - kinesthesis is something I use a lot. Basicly - if it feels good then go with it otherwise slow down a touch.

    That is my race plan for my 1st half iron distance next week. just go with the flow and you'll finish.
  • willieverfinishwillieverfinish Posts: 1,381
    oh and I'm sure I read somewhere that an OD run should be no more than 5% slower than a stand alone PB over the same distance. I can't reference that as I have no idea where I read it - just one of those facts that tumble about inside my head. Sorry
  • ZacniciZacnici Posts: 1,385
    +1 for Willeverfinish

    I can do three separate triathlons, all the same distance, but will have different times due to variations in routes, weather etc. and also how I feel on the day.

    Triathlon is not as simple as 'I can do the 1500m swim in THAT LAKEin 17min, I can do the 40Km bike FOR THAT ROUTE in 1:20 and I can do the 10Km run FOR THAT ROUTE in 42min ergo +5% and that WILL give me my time' It is a decent enough approximation but what if you take too much out on the swim and do 16min? slow start on bike you try to pull back, still not get into pace and end up with a 1:23, think bum need to get some back, get into T2 are so flustered you take your helmet off before racking fully, bong 3 min penalty and then lose it cpmpletely on the run.

    Look at the previous results for your age group for the event, look at the time spread from fastest to slowest, look at the times for the middle 50%, they will give you indicators of what times you may be looking at .... and then forget it.

    As Willeverfinish says your body will dictate the pace, you will know when you can push a bit out or when to ease off a touch and if you are new to trathlon or the distance it will be a learning curve.

    Enjoy it and good luck.
  • SuttsSutts Posts: 10
    This fits in quite well with a question I was going to post. How about target HR for given race distances? For example I think I read somewhere that a 5K should be run at 95%MaxHR a 10K @ 90%. So what % might one maintain over a sprint, OD, MD for the swim, bike and run.

    I did hear the results of a study saying that for OD one should swim at around 80% of max perceived effort. This will give the best compromise between speed and having some left in the tank for the bike and run.
  • jonEjonE Posts: 1,113
    It is so easy to say that you will swim at 80%,but in practice(race)it will vary between 60%and 95%,due to not having clean water to swim in and being jossled by others,unless you are swimming at the front.
    OW generally has to be gauged on RPE rather than hr,ever tried looking at a hr moniter whilst swimming?

    As for judging time,that will only come with experiance.If the conditions are normal,I can generally guess my finishing time to within 3 mins for a sprint,5-7 for an OD,10-20 for a middle and as for IM forget it,it is a total different ball game.
    A small note to add is that it took over ten years to get the finish times as near to my guess.
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    The HR idea sounds a possibility. Aim for subthreshold all the way - "Zone 4" in the Friel terminology? Or try and go harder?

    +5% on PB for the run sounds optimistic to me - for me in sprints more like +15% on stand alone 5K time, though I guess jelly legs may impact less over 10K; on the 5K's it usually lasts for the first 2K, and then I tend to speed up a bit so % increase over 10K might actually be lower.

    Anyway, any further guesstimates very welcome. I am aware that no triathlon plan survives the first contact with a heel kicking off your goggles, but I find it therapeutic to try and get an idea of what to at least attempt to aim at...
  • PC_67PC_67 Posts: 196
    Just to reiterate the early responses: you can't just pluck a time from the air as being a good target. I did a 2:37 last year, followed by a 2:27 only 2 weeks later. I was gutted with my 2:37 but wise words from some guys here made me feel better. My (seemingly) slow 48 minute run really surprised me, but I really felt it hard - it was a reasonably hilly route. Yet when I checked my times relative to the field I saw that I came 10th of everyone 40 or over - probably my best age group placing ever. I did a 44 minute 10k at Milton Keynes 2 weeks later, which was only a minute off my standalone 10k time. Course was rumoured to be a little under 10k but some Garmin users said it was exactly 10k and I believe them!
  • diddsdidds Posts: 655
    Jenson Button did London OD last year in a littleover 2 hours.

    the lass that finished just behind me at Blithfield last year took just under 4 hours.

    Are you Jenson Button or that lass? Both posted good times for who THEY were.

    So - getting back to what others have said...

    1) how long does the 1500m swim take that you will be doing in THE race?
    2) how long does the 40Km bike take that you will be doing in THE race?
    3) how long does the 10Km run take that you will be doing in THE race?


    Add them together, add 5%. there's your potential time.

    If you don't have those times to hand,then anything else is total conjecture.

    E.g. I did two sprints at the end of last season. 1st one was a 750m o/water swim, 2nd one was a 400m pool swim. Both 20 Km bike,5 Km run.

    the openwater sprint I finished in TWENTY minutes less than the pool sprint.

    So what would my target time have been had I done a third sprint shortly afterwards?

    didds
  • BopomofoBopomofo Posts: 980
    Or, if nothing useful can be said, how "tough" should each event feel? Take it easy or aim for threshold all the way?
    This is a more sensible question, mate. As a confident swimmer but weaker on the bike and run I go for "Cruise the swim, nail the bike, survive the run" as a strategy, but that's just me.

    I'd say that you should expect the swim to be a fair bit harder than training as you will not be able to settle down into a steady pace. You will get kicked and hit. You will not get clear water AT ANY POINT. How would this affect your time?

    The bike will hurt and you'll be surprised at how caned you feel for the first few km. How would this affect your time?

    The run will feel uncomfortable for the first few km as your legs will be stiff and sore from the bike. You will struggle to get your HR under control for 5 minutes at the beginning. How would this affect your time?

    Other than that, have fun!
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    Thanks. Maybe one approach to setting OD targets is extrapolating the sprint times I managed at Blenheim and then adding a minute to the swim, 2 minutes to the run, and 2 minutes to the bike (NB the Blenheim course is quite hilly, whereas the OD is fairly flat). For me that would point to:

    Swim: 30
    Bike: 1:16
    Run: 45

    Incidentally, that also seems roughly in line with the ranges that you usefully suggested on the other thread on bike/swim times.

    The run seems very difficult to call. Do people run the OD 10K at alot slower pace than the Sprint 5K? One theory is that the difference might not actually be that much because althogh OD is alot longer so will be more tired, more of it will presumably be spent without jelly legs - on the sprint tri I felt like I didn't really get going until the last couple of K.

    Anyway, famous last words and it probably wont turn out to be anythign like the above once I end up choking my way around the swim, getting a puncture on the bike, and finding that my legs have turned to concrete all the way on the run. But got to start somewhere.
  • BopomofoBopomofo Posts: 980
    Anyway, famous last words and it probably wont turn out to be anythign like the above once I end up choking my way around the swim, getting a puncture on the bike, and finding that my legs have turned to concrete all the way on the run. But got to start somewhere.
    That's the spirit! In fact, there's an entire tri club for people who accept that something will always go wrong and who just get on with propping up the results table regardless....

    Now get out there and smash it up!
  • shadowone1shadowone1 Posts: 1,408
    dhcm,

    You remind me of me last year. I had done a few sprints then decided to do an OD. Then wondered if I could do it and started looking at times. I quite quickly realised that after the swim that times was the least of my worries and actually just doing it was my main priority. Turns out I had a decent swim time of 28mins and then everything was just shit, really. The weather was bloody awful and I had a puncture on the bike so my bike split was crap, then I had to run like bugger to make the time up and I had never ran 10k before!!!

    Then on my second OD my swim time was slower, bike split was better but run was worse. The factors were different, it was roasting hot that day and and I wilted in the heat.

    The point I'm trying to make is that you simply can't compare one race to another as the variables do change. Sure you can have a guide but the problem with having a "guide" is what do you do if you don't beat your guide? Do you sit and beat yourself up?

    If it is your first OD, then enjoy it and go for it. Yes time is important, its important to everyone who races but gaining the first hand experience is worth its wait in gold. As Bopo says when things go wrong you learn to overcome these. Recently at my last OD, I lost my gels and had only Nuun + water, which was fine as I knew I had done it before but for a rookie that could possibly have put them into a spin.

    So take it easy and don't get too hung up on times. Aim to do your very best and then see what your time is. That is then your target.
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    Wise advice; I do not get hung up on times - if it goes badly I will just aim to have a better go in 2011, no worries at all. I just like having a target.

    And hey, maybe I will hit it.

    Will report back after the race.
  • shadowone1shadowone1 Posts: 1,408
    We all get hung up on times. Its part and parcel of the game, but don't get too hung up on it thats all.

    The variables than it depend on are huge, what to do is give yourself a realistic target and then go from there.

    Enjoy the race and gives us the race report when you've done it.
  • diddsdidds Posts: 655
    something jack said above has reminded of something a few seasons ago in my role of rugby coach.

    our club's colts coach had his season plan all sorted a bit before season starts - that's top planning.

    However,part of his plan was "Win miminum of 4 of first 5 league matches"

    He asked me to comment.

    I replied... each season at colts (and any AG at rugby)is a "new season". Both you and the other clubs will have a totally different set up -new young players, and the older players from last year are gone. Until you get out there and play, there are very few "knowns". You don't know yet really what your players are really capable of, and you certainly know less about your opposition's players. As such, you cannot extrapolate anything from last season's performances really. And with that in mind, if they lose the first two matches there's your season plan out of the window - so what do you do then... start a new season plan? And if that gets compromised quickly - what then? Have you now got to Xmas and you haven't actually started a season plan?

    He agreed with me!

    Didds

    PS as it happens that season's colts won their league!
  • dhcmdhcm Posts: 67
    dhcm wrote:
    Thanks. Maybe one approach to setting OD targets is extrapolating the sprint times I managed at Blenheim and then adding a minute to the swim, 2 minutes to the run, and 2 minutes to the bike (NB the Blenheim course is quite hilly, whereas the OD is fairly flat). For me that would point to:

    Swim: 30
    Bike: 1:16
    Run: 45

    Incidentally, that also seems roughly in line with the ranges that you usefully suggested on the other thread on bike/swim times.

    The run seems very difficult to call. Do people run the OD 10K at alot slower pace than the Sprint 5K? One theory is that the difference might not actually be that much because althogh OD is alot longer so will be more tired, more of it will presumably be spent without jelly legs - on the sprint tri I felt like I didn't really get going until the last couple of K.

    Anyway, famous last words and it probably wont turn out to be anythign like the above once I end up choking my way around the swim, getting a puncture on the bike, and finding that my legs have turned to concrete all the way on the run. But got to start somewhere.
    Actual event was today (hyde park).Great event, great location for course (for Londoners nice to be able to cycle from home to a start that is not at crack of dawn), good weather (for those of us starting later on anyway).

    For the scientific record, the sprint distance + x minutes approach (see quote) worked as follows:

    (a) swim: Prediction: 30. Outcome: 30. Bang on.
    (b) Bike: Prediction 1:16. Outcome: 1:11:30 (actual time was 1:04, but bike course at hyde park was short by 4km, so need to adjust for like for like comparison).
    (c) Run: Prediction 45. Outcome 41.30.

    OD times for the bike/run were both at quicker pace than at Blenheim, despite being double the distance. I think this supports one or both of the following conclusions:

    1. Training paid off between early June and end July. I was attempting to follow the general idea of the Friel "build phase" and get some faster sessions in. Might have had some effect.
    2. Everyone on this thread who said that no times are comparable across different events were absolutely right. There was no improvement, Blenheim just has alot more hills.

    But whichever is right (and I think probably both are), and even if the targets were a bit soft as it turned out, it is still nice to have beaten them. And now I have a tougher target for next year...

    Thanks again all.
Sign In or Register to comment.