It strikes me that smaller more acheivable targets throughout his training will keep motavation levels higher. I am not talking about not getting to 40 mins but setting say a 2 min target over a month or two rather than a huge 6 mins!
I think we're not too far off saying the same thing. However, it is all a little bit unfair on Gazza! It's up for him to decide what he goes for. I think he will probably have his sights set high though, once he takes on board the lessons on Jack Daniels, and starts to put his times into www.runningforfitness.org's VDOT calculator and finds out that his LV pace based on his 46 min performance is really really low [:)].
Thanks Jack...it's always helps to get some positive feedback as sometimes it feels like the hardwork isn't paying off!! Your comments are much appreciated!![:D]
I have just read through this thread with interest! I take on board everyone's thoughts and experiences because i believe that you can learn most from those who have!
Here's my thoughts...
...i am of the opinion that i should be able to make decent advances from where i am now within a relatively short time frame - this is wholly based on the fact i haven't been running long at all - i'm guessing i have some easy (easier) gains to make.
...i hear you all about the 40 min mark, and i appreciate the difference between 47mins and 40mins....
...and i understand that setting a 'too higher' goal may result in failure (to reach that goal in a given time frame)....
...but this is who i am, this is how i achieve, i set goals that may seem too high and i go to achieve them. I don't think about 'missing' my targets, i think about 'hitting' them.
What's funny about all this is that i don't even like running, in fact, on Sunday when i was half way around trying to drink a sip of water from a bottle, it was not pleasant at all.
But that's not it for me......its not for the enjoyment of running that i run, its the challenge i love, that feeling you get when you've really pushed. And if i'm honest i'm beginning to think that 'pushing' hard is yet another element i have to learn, practice and perfect. In my two tri's i don't think i did it. I don't think i pushed 100%, my head told me to slow down when it got uncomfortable and i did.
Going off course a little - swimming was my biggest challenge in January when i started, because i couldn't do it, i could not have swam 400m FC in January. Swimming quickly became my focus and within a few months i got ok at it, good enough to compete. It wasn't easy but it was a challenge.
So i will stick to my goal of 40mins, but i will not be silly about it, i'm only too aware of the injury concerns. I will not think about 'missing' my goal. I will read my book (arrived today) and put together a decent training plan. When i get there....i'll feel on top of the world
In the mean time i'll post my ongoing results here.
As Nido Qubein once said "Nothing can add more power to your life than concentrating all your energies on a limited set of targets". IT's your target for you to set and hit, go for it.
And the great German atheistic pissimist said "Talent hits a target no one else can hit, but genius hits a target no one else can see". If you don't push yourself, you'll never know waht you caould have achieved.
Oh my....Jack, I've just read your angry coach tirade..[:)][:)]...and do you know what...although you were aiming it at Mr G...well you've inspired me to work that bit harder and train that bit harder, actually alot harder, so thank you for that!! That sub 25min 5k I can do it..I CAN do it!! Roll on Sunday!! [:D]
....if it were not for the likes of you this forum would be very dull! I love the feedback and hope it keeps coming for a long time to come.
A few points to raise...
i have no idea what HTFU means! Please advise.
i don't run with water, i snatched it at a drink station, and let it go 20 meters later.
you're right, i did hit the nail on the head!
as for an under performance, i disagree, it was a PB, that means best ever time over the distance.....don't get me wrong, i may have had it in me to do better, but not to my knowledge, experience (knowledge) counts for a great deal, and i had no experience of running 10k as fast as i could. Without experience i couldn't gauge how good/bad i felt at specific points. You say run like your life depends on it - i don't have the experience to do that, i don't know that if i do that i won't fall apart after 7k. Not finishing is not an option. I have recognised that i'm not 'hurting' enough, i will push - but i won't push so hard as to injure myself.
I will reach my goal, with your help i may reach it faster!
Personally I don't think a standalone 10k should hurt throughout. I think it should be comfortably fast and maybe a tough injection of pace towards the end (anything from last 2 miles to last 400m depending on how you feel).
I've run a lot of 10ks and have learnt to trust my own capabilities. Sometimes by sticking to the above I finish thinking I may have left 20 or 30 seconds out there, but never more.
I think over time you learn to trust your own pace judgment.
If you could hold a conversation with a running mate you're going too slow, if you can't speak at all you're probably going to fast. If you can speak in spurts you're probably going about right.
I'm intrigued by this post - on the one hand, I love Gazza's attitude, but on the other, I'd like to be more like JH is suggesting.
Gaz - As someone in a similar position of inexperience, I can empathise, and totally understand your rationale. Also, I think you are spot on in terms of your goal-setting - good on you mate. Very admirable. Set a big scary goal and work towards it. That's how I got into this sport in the first place.
On the other, JH comments definitely made me start thinking about my own way of thinking when I'm running - sometimes, I do give in and slow down a bit when it really starts to hurt. Yes - part of it might be that same inexperience where I want to be sure I can go the whole distance, but part of it might also be my own attitude. I am improving - I can see that in my times, but I could be working harder sometimes...
I'm going to try to take something from both points of view I think.
@gary - please don't take it to heart! (I'm sure you won't). It was a bit of a thought exercise to try to put down an extreme - to get people thinking in a different way. I don't know enough of the facts in your case to be able to comment on how good your performances are. All I've seen is a few video frames of you running. I was hoping to provoke a bit of debate/thought. I've put Mr Angry Coach back in his box now [:)].
Personally I don't think a standalone 10k should hurt throughout. I think it should be comfortably fast and maybe a tough injection of pace towards the end (anything from last 2 miles to last 400m depending on how you feel).
I've run a lot of 10ks and have learnt to trust my own capabilities. Sometimes by sticking to the above I finish thinking I may have left 20 or 30 seconds out there, but never more.
I think over time you learn to trust your own pace judgment.
If you could hold a conversation with a running mate you're going too slow, if you can't speak at all you're probably going to fast. If you can speak in spurts you're probably going about right.
Anyone agree?
Actually, I do! It shouldn't be complete agony. Perhaps I would say "uncomfortably hard" rather than "comfortably fast". If you are doing negative splits then this is the right approach.
There is also a school of thought which says keep all the hurt for training.
Of course, this is "hurt" as in pushing the body hard - not injury kind of hurt.
Gaz - Keep all the info from this thread in your head as you start the next run! I am sure you filter out what is good for you and not so good for you!
Let your mind wander into that deep dark pit in the back of your brain and stay there until either you break 40 mins or you puck!
It might onl;u be me that has that dark place but once I get in theres always a fit to get out! I never managed to find it at my last run to much other peoples stuff going on!
If you dont have one you could share mune but I warn you its a scary place even for me!!!!!
I seem to be in a similar position to Gary, perhaps I need the Jack Hughes angry coach as well.
It's becoming apparent that running is my weakest disciplne. Using the Running for Fitness website and the time from a race I did recently, I am coming out with a 10K time of 46.18 and a VO2 max of 43.
Like Gary I've been properly training since January.
At a recent duathlon I was 53rd out of 96 on first run, 68th on the second run but 31st on the bike. So am I just mentally kidding myself when running (ie need to be harder on myself to go faster) or is there a genuine fitness issue I need to work on in training?
Racing 10k is definitely uncomfortably hard if you want a half-decent time.
The key is consistent pacing. If you go off too hard you're going to struggle big-time. I made this mistake during one last year. I was aiming for 7 min miles, but went off at 6.23. It was pain all the way.
For me, you three runs a week is needed to see results..One long run, one tempo and one intervals session.
I'm going to go a little against the grain here (cue angry coach) but i don't hurt myself in races. I train to a pace and then i go faster in the run. If i ran at the pace which would hurt me from the start, i would get 3-5k and have to stop, not because I can't take the pain, but because my body will not allow it any more - perhaps I can run too fast over short distances? So i head out for a 10k, 10mile half mara with the same idea, run fast, run hard, don't die. That said, I seem to average the same race pace over a 10 miler (and up to half mara) as I have done over 10k (about 8min miles) so maybe i am too relaxed on the 10k as i don't want to die, and generally treat them as training for a longer race. My next 10k is on 25th and I am aiming for about 45 mins, although i expect nearer 48 as I haven't really done much run training lately. Perhaps i'll have a 'balls to the wall' run and see how it goes. It is a resonably flat course so that bodes well i think.
I think the 10k is a tough race, stuck in between your half mary when you're definetely concerned about your sustainable pace over a significant distance, and your 5k where you can really say maximum pain for 15-25 minutes depending on your pace. Ok, 13 if you're from kenya.
You're really gonna have to do at least 3 or 4 a year to find that spot, or practice on focus in your training runs in finding that threshold where you're not going to crash and burn, but leave nothing left in the tank. For me, I tend to ere on the tank not being at zero when I finish, even with the 500m sprint at the end because I need to listen to angry Jack - HTFU and learn that the pain doesn't kill me, just makes me faster.
There's a Hawkwind quote which comes to mind "flying is trying is dying". I think they were thinking of narcotic induced euphoria rather than athletic performance - the other kind of LSD, but, hey-ho.
what do you mean the other LSD? you mean all this time i've been taking mind altering drugs when i should have been training? Maybe this isn't the sport i thought it was...
I'm going to go a little against the grain here (cue angry coach) but i don't hurt myself in races. I train to a pace and then i go faster in the run. If i ran at the pace which would hurt me from the start, i would get 3-5k and have to stop, not because I can't take the pain, but because my body will not allow it any more - perhaps I can run too fast over short distances? So i head out for a 10k, 10mile half mara with the same idea, run fast, run hard, don't die. That said, I seem to average the same race pace over a 10 miler (and up to half mara) as I have done over 10k (about 8min miles) so maybe i am too relaxed on the 10k as i don't want to die, and generally treat them as training for a longer race. My next 10k is on 25th and I am aiming for about 45 mins, although i expect nearer 48 as I haven't really done much run training lately. Perhaps i'll have a 'balls to the wall' run and see how it goes. It is a resonably flat course so that bodes well i think.
I think there is a physiological tipping point at around 1 hour of effort - so your HM and Marathon pace would/should be slower than 5K/10K pace.
Put some of your times into the race time predictor and see where you sit. You'll probably find your 10K is a bit slow based on the times you have for HM and Marathon.
The other thing to see is where you HR is when running at 10K pace - that can also give you a feel if you are running at Marathon pace all the time.
yeah my 10k pb is a few minutes slower than the half mara pace would indicate - but then i've done some speed work since my last 10k on a hilly course and was last year. I'll wait and see how i do later this month
Comments
I think we're not too far off saying the same thing. However, it is all a little bit unfair on Gazza! It's up for him to decide what he goes for. I think he will probably have his sights set high though, once he takes on board the lessons on Jack Daniels, and starts to put his times into www.runningforfitness.org's VDOT calculator and finds out that his LV pace based on his 46 min performance is really really low [:)].
Whoops! There I go again.
I have just read through this thread with interest! I take on board everyone's thoughts and experiences because i believe that you can learn most from those who have!
Here's my thoughts...
...i am of the opinion that i should be able to make decent advances from where i am now within a relatively short time frame - this is wholly based on the fact i haven't been running long at all - i'm guessing i have some easy (easier) gains to make.
...i hear you all about the 40 min mark, and i appreciate the difference between 47mins and 40mins....
...and i understand that setting a 'too higher' goal may result in failure (to reach that goal in a given time frame)....
...but this is who i am, this is how i achieve, i set goals that may seem too high and i go to achieve them. I don't think about 'missing' my targets, i think about 'hitting' them.
What's funny about all this is that i don't even like running, in fact, on Sunday when i was half way around trying to drink a sip of water from a bottle, it was not pleasant at all.
But that's not it for me......its not for the enjoyment of running that i run, its the challenge i love, that feeling you get when you've really pushed. And if i'm honest i'm beginning to think that 'pushing' hard is yet another element i have to learn, practice and perfect. In my two tri's i don't think i did it. I don't think i pushed 100%, my head told me to slow down when it got uncomfortable and i did.
Going off course a little - swimming was my biggest challenge in January when i started, because i couldn't do it, i could not have swam 400m FC in January. Swimming quickly became my focus and within a few months i got ok at it, good enough to compete. It wasn't easy but it was a challenge.
So i will stick to my goal of 40mins, but i will not be silly about it, i'm only too aware of the injury concerns. I will not think about 'missing' my goal. I will read my book (arrived today) and put together a decent training plan. When i get there....i'll feel on top of the world
In the mean time i'll post my ongoing results here.
Gazza
....if it were not for the likes of you this forum would be very dull! I love the feedback and hope it keeps coming for a long time to come.
A few points to raise...
i have no idea what HTFU means! Please advise.
i don't run with water, i snatched it at a drink station, and let it go 20 meters later.
you're right, i did hit the nail on the head!
as for an under performance, i disagree, it was a PB, that means best ever time over the distance.....don't get me wrong, i may have had it in me to do better, but not to my knowledge, experience (knowledge) counts for a great deal, and i had no experience of running 10k as fast as i could. Without experience i couldn't gauge how good/bad i felt at specific points. You say run like your life depends on it - i don't have the experience to do that, i don't know that if i do that i won't fall apart after 7k. Not finishing is not an option. I have recognised that i'm not 'hurting' enough, i will push - but i won't push so hard as to injure myself.
I will reach my goal, with your help i may reach it faster!
Top Boffin+terrifying coach+cute puppy=Jack Hughes. True.
as I am here before JH... I've always read it to mean.,..
Hurry
The
F*ck
Up
!!!!
hope that is clear ;-)
didds
I've run a lot of 10ks and have learnt to trust my own capabilities. Sometimes by sticking to the above I finish thinking I may have left 20 or 30 seconds out there, but never more.
I think over time you learn to trust your own pace judgment.
If you could hold a conversation with a running mate you're going too slow, if you can't speak at all you're probably going to fast. If you can speak in spurts you're probably going about right.
Anyone agree?
Gaz - As someone in a similar position of inexperience, I can empathise, and totally understand your rationale. Also, I think you are spot on in terms of your goal-setting - good on you mate. Very admirable. Set a big scary goal and work towards it. That's how I got into this sport in the first place.
On the other, JH comments definitely made me start thinking about my own way of thinking when I'm running - sometimes, I do give in and slow down a bit when it really starts to hurt. Yes - part of it might be that same inexperience where I want to be sure I can go the whole distance, but part of it might also be my own attitude. I am improving - I can see that in my times, but I could be working harder sometimes...
I'm going to try to take something from both points of view I think.
A PB is always well done!
Oh.. it's "Harden the F. Up".
[;)]
There is also a school of thought which says keep all the hurt for training.
Of course, this is "hurt" as in pushing the body hard - not injury kind of hurt.
Gaz - Keep all the info from this thread in your head as you start the next run! I am sure you filter out what is good for you and not so good for you!
Let your mind wander into that deep dark pit in the back of your brain and stay there until either you break 40 mins or you puck!
It might onl;u be me that has that dark place but once I get in theres always a fit to get out! I never managed to find it at my last run to much other peoples stuff going on!
If you dont have one you could share mune but I warn you its a scary place even for me!!!!!
[And I'm most certainly not a morris dancer and have little or no interest in wars, just in case you were wondering.]
It's becoming apparent that running is my weakest disciplne. Using the Running for Fitness website and the time from a race I did recently, I am coming out with a 10K time of 46.18 and a VO2 max of 43.
Like Gary I've been properly training since January.
At a recent duathlon I was 53rd out of 96 on first run, 68th on the second run but 31st on the bike. So am I just mentally kidding myself when running (ie need to be harder on myself to go faster) or is there a genuine fitness issue I need to work on in training?
All angry advice appreciated [:D]
The key is consistent pacing. If you go off too hard you're going to struggle big-time. I made this mistake during one last year. I was aiming for 7 min miles, but went off at 6.23. It was pain all the way.
For me, you three runs a week is needed to see results..One long run, one tempo and one intervals session.
i think you found your forum signatyre there!
You're really gonna have to do at least 3 or 4 a year to find that spot, or practice on focus in your training runs in finding that threshold where you're not going to crash and burn, but leave nothing left in the tank. For me, I tend to ere on the tank not being at zero when I finish, even with the 500m sprint at the end because I need to listen to angry Jack - HTFU and learn that the pain doesn't kill me, just makes me faster.
I think there is a physiological tipping point at around 1 hour of effort - so your HM and Marathon pace would/should be slower than 5K/10K pace.
Put some of your times into the race time predictor and see where you sit. You'll probably find your 10K is a bit slow based on the times you have for HM and Marathon.
The other thing to see is where you HR is when running at 10K pace - that can also give you a feel if you are running at Marathon pace all the time.
But really, it depends on your goals!